A representative of the Harris Federation will be attending the meeting.
Minutes:
5.1 Chris Randall, Director of New Developments at the Harris Federation, addressed the committee. The Federation was particularly interested in free schools and academy conversions. It also liaised with local authorities to look for involvement in new projects. Where there was an existing school, such as the Peckham Academy or East Dulwich Boys or Girls, the Federation would ideally be looking at primary schools with the aim of developing these into feeder schools. One or two of the Federation’s schools had opened as all-through schools. Mr Randall commented that the Federation’s relationship with Southwark was very good at officer level but that it had a slightly better relationship with some other authorities.
5.2 Mr Randall stated that, locally, the Federation had been of the view that it would like to open a free school in East Dulwich and Nunhead. It had engaged with local parents and had got as much support in Nunhead as in East Dulwich. The availability of sites was limited with Peckham Rye and park tending to divide things. There were planning implications for the Harris Girls East Dulwich site, which would be an ideal location, as it was not possible to put another school there as it would take up metropolitan open land. The Federation had begun to look at the Dulwich Hospital site before the Education Funding Agency had found the former police station site. Mr Randall explained that while this served East Dulwich the Federation had the opportunity to bid for a free school to serve Nunhead parents. It had engaged with the Education Funding Agency (EFA) and had discussions with Southwark officers but had not come up with an alternative site for a two form entry primary school so was still looking at the hospital site. In urban areas the availability of good sites often drove the location of the school – and admissions arrangements then needed to enable them to serve the areas of demand. Mr Randall added that early in the process of the proposal for a new secondary school the Federation had been asked if it was interested in putting itself forward to operate it. The Federation thought that this was not appropriate for it with nearby schools that were already Harris operated, and that diversity would not be helped by getting involved, and chose not to be involved. The Federation had talked with the EFA and the latter was of the view that it was possible to develop both a primary and secondary school on the hospital site.
5.3 Councillor Karl Eastham asked what made a Harris School unique, how autonomous were heads and what was the input from parents. Mr Randall responded that, in terms of secondary schools, it would not be possible to recruit outstanding principals unless they were given a lot of freedom in the curriculum. There were a number of basic tenets across Harris schools including good behaviour, excellent teaching and learning and systems for assessing achievement and progress. After that there could be specialism in curriculum and ethos. In terms of primary schools there was less opportunity to develop the curriculum in different ways. Unlike some free schools, Harris schools did not move away from the national curriculum or use non-qualified teachers. There was freedom for principals to run schools the way they wanted, providing the school was achieving the required outcome, excellent progress and achievement for its pupils. Mr Randall acknowledged that the underlying Harris approach was more developed at the secondary level because it had operated secondary schools for longer.
5.4 Councillor Eastham asked about internal inspections and assessment. Mr Randall explained that Harris used its own consultants (professionals in delivering English, mathematics and science) to support principals and look at the quality of teaching and learning. The Federation also bought in OFSTED inspection teams who visited schools and fed back to principals and the leadership team on areas which might need improvement.
5.5 Councillor Anood Al-Samerai thanked the Harris Federation for turning around some schools in Southwark. She felt that there was good progress in the council in understanding the school places issue. She wondered if the old Harvester site on Lordship Lane would be suitable for a school and whether there were any other sites that the Harris Federation would like the council to push for a primary school. Mr Randall replied that the Harvester site was not big enough and neither was the Copeland car park. It was important to have sufficient play space. Councillor Al-Samerai asked whether the hospital site was the only one on the table. Mr Randall responded that he was not sure what was happening with Bellenden school and that the Federation would be interested if a site might be freed up there.
5.6 Councillor Johnson Situ asked whether the process of finding a new site was more demand or more supply led. Mr Randall responded that both land and pupils were important. Three years ago, when free schools came in, it was necessary to show the demand for a new school among parents but not necessarily basic need. Now it was necessary to look at pupil place planning, identify a need, and prove that parents wanted the Federation’s sort of school or that there were failing schools in the immediate area. The Federation used polling companies to do interviews with nursery parents to establish whether they wanted a Harris School in their area. In terms of demand, a basic need had to be demonstrated and it had to be shown that there was parental support for a Federation school to open. Sites could be outside the area but needed to respond to and serve a basic need. Mr Randall explained that in another borough a site could perhaps be found just outside the area it needed to serve and the Federation could look at ways of making admissions work. In Croydon the Federation had looked at nodal admissions.
5.7 The chair asked whether, in terms of applications for a Nunhead primary school, the Federation would have made its application if it had known about plans to expand Ivydale. Mr Randall felt that it was difficult to say. There needed to be a basic need and diversity. Large primary schools were a challenge to run and the Federation would not ideally expand a school beyond two or three forms of entry. In a school of around 600 or 700 pupils, an individual head could know all the pupils and this was particularly important at primary level. It was also a challenge to run a school over two sites.
5.8 The chair highlighted Mr Randall's comment that it was important to engage with a local authority. When Southwark officers had attended a committee meeting, they had said that the Federation’s application had come out of the blue. It seemed that the Nunhead free school had been approved but with no site available and then that the free school was challenging for the Dulwich Hospital site. The chair wondered if this was the result of the Federation and the council not talking to each other. Mr Randall stated that it had been known to Southwark that the Federation was interested in a school to serve Nunhead. No-one had asked if the Federation was interested in a school on the Ivydale site. Mr Randall acknowledged that there could have been better consultation and that there were faults on both sides. The Federation had informed Southwark when it had put its application in and had met officers. In the assessment process the DFE always consulted Southwark.
5.9 Councillor Tom Flynn reported that he was regularly made aware of issues at Harris Academy Peckham and asked if Mr Randall was confident that enough was being done to meet these issues. Mr Randall responded that the principal from Harris Academy Purley was now at Peckham, that he had worked with her to establish that Academy as Outstanding and that he had confidence that she was doing everything to continue to improve the school. He urged members of the committee to go and visit the school and to let the principal know immediately about any concerns that were raised with them so that she could address them. Mr Randall commented that the school was seen as generally serving challenging pupils and that it was difficult to get parents of less challenging children to send them there.
5.10 The vice-chair, Councillor Rosie Shimell, was particularly interested in admissions and admissions policies. She commented that the council had lots of data available and wondered if the Federation had access to this. Mr Randall replied that the Federation received information from the council in terms of pupil place planning. Some authorities were interested in the Federation opening new schools with them but this was not necessarily the case in Southwark. In other authorities there was discussion with officers about where opportunities existed and the Federation might delay applications to take account of this. In Haringey there was an agreement to open a primary school. The EFA found a site in the west of the borough but the council said that there was no need in this area and therefore the Federation was holding off until a site was found in the east of the borough. The Federation had an open dialogue with Merton about demand for a secondary school and was shaping its application to suit the council’s needs.
5.11 Councillor Jasmine Ali took up the issue of the Federation’s relationships in Southwark, both with the council and with other schools. She explained that she was the chair of the Education & Children’s Services Scrutiny Sub-committee and stated that there had not been any response from Federation schools to a recent survey that the sub-committee had initiated. She also asked what the Federation’s relationship was with the head teachers’ executive and whether there was a capacity to build relationships. Mr Randall responded that, while he did not represent the principals, one of them had commented that she had a problem with the timing of meetings which were on a Friday lunchtime when she felt that she could not justify being out of her school. Councillor Ali said that she would feed this back but that she would still like to speak to heads of Federation schools. She asked how else the schools worked with other schools. Mr Randall emphasised that there were four schools in Southwark that worked together and within the bigger Federation. All of these wanted to get the best outcomes for pupils. He asked Councillor Ali to provide details of the survey and again invited members to visit the schools. Councillor Ali stressed that the question of how to bridge the achievement and attainment gap between the richest and the most deprived children was a major concern for the council. She was of the opinion that if the Harris Federation believed that it provided good schools then it should be in partnership with other schools in the borough.
5.12 Councillor Claire Maugham highlighted the difference between the Federation’s plans for the Dulwich Hospital site and Southwark's plans for secondary school places. She sought clarification of the proposed admissions policy and nodal points. She also emphasised that primary school children needed to be taken to school. Mr Randall responded that the Federation would need to look at helping children to get to school if parents were not able to do so. However, the Federation would much prefer a site in Nunhead. Statutory consultation would be key in terms of the Nunhead School and the Federation was holding off until the EFA had agreed heads of terms with the NHS in respect of the hospital site. Since the case for the school was originally made by demand from Nunhead parents, if there was insufficient demand from the parents for a primary school given the site location then the Federation would withdraw its application.
5.13 Councillor Situ asked whether the Federation looked for any particular figures to indicate demand and need for a school. He also wondered about the Federation’s relationships with local communities in other boroughs. Mr Randall explained that the Federation looked to see parents signing up for a half to two thirds of the places that a school would open with. The expectation was that once a school was up and running more parents would show interest. The relationship with local communities was different for each academy. Harris Girls and Harris Boys East Dulwich probably did not have as strong a local connection as pupils were drawn more from Peckham. However in South Norwood all students were drawn from three quarters of a mile away and the new secondary school in Croydon had a high level of engagement with local communities and groups.
5.14 Councillor Al-Samerai commented that in the past there had been tension between the council and the Harris Federation and that she and Councillor Shimell had raised the need for the council to talk to the Federation. She believed that there had been progress and that the council accepted that it had to deal with free schools. She suggested that members should all visit the local Harris schools and that there should be more regular contact between the council and the Federation. This could be a recommendation to the Director of Children & Adults. The chair agreed that regular meetings between senior officers, the relevant Cabinet member and the Harris Federation could be very productive. Mr Randall stressed that meetings should not just involve the Harris Federation but other organisations such as ARK. Councillor Al-Samerai agreed that there should be a dialogue between all interested providers. Councillor Fiona Colley, Cabinet Member for Finance, Strategy & Performance, also agreed that the relationship could be refreshed. She commented that, as a Nunhead councillor and a parent of a child under five years old, the first she had heard of a proposed primary school for Nunhead was when the Federation had put in its application. She also said that the Federation had an image problem in Nunhead and was disappointed that Federation heads did not feel that it was a good idea to go to meetings of head teachers in the borough.
5.15 Councillor Evelyn Akoto asked whether there was demand for Harris academies. Mr Randall confirmed that there was and that in every other authority that the Federation was working in schools were oversubscribed and really successful. in Southwark, Harris schools served very deprived areas and children and he felt that the tipping point had not been reached where enough parents of other children were sending them to Harris schools. Councillor Al-Samerai commented that Harris Bermondsey was very successful.
5.16 Councillor Martin Seaton indicated that he had been a school governor for twenty years. He was interested in what was distinctive about Harris schools. He also agreed that there was a strong relationship between the Federation and the Department of Education but less so with the council. Mr Randall emphasised that the relationship was different in other authorities. In response to further questions from Councillor Seaton, Mr Randall clarified that schools in Southwark were not oversubscribed to the same extent as Harris schools in other authorities. None of the secondary schools were oversubscribed with first preferences and this was in contrast to other schools in other authorities. He agreed again that there might be a tension because of the distances that parents would be asked to travel to a primary school on the Dulwich Hospital site and stated again that if there was not a demand from Nunhead parents then the Federation would have to consider withdrawing its application.
5.17 The chair stated that as a ward councillor in Peckham Rye he had spoken to many local parents. The view was very strong that people wanted Ivydale to be expanded and for there to be a secondary school on the Dulwich Hospital site. He would be grateful if that could be taken back to the Harris Federation. Mr Randall responded that the Federation had worked hard with the EFA to find a suitable site and emphasised that a primary school did not preclude a secondary school on the hospital site. Councillor Al-Samerai stated that parents were desperate for primary school places in East Dulwich and that she would like to see a recommendation for both a primary and a secondary school on the hospital site.
5.18 The chair thanked Mr Randall for coming to speak to the meeting and stressed the council’s desire for more engagement.